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in what circumstance is this ever called for & what (or whose) purpose does it serve? isn't it best to allow the body to dilate naturally? if the mother is manually dilated against her wishes, does this count as assault?
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Re: manual dilation
Tue, October 21, 2008 - 6:26 AM.....Unless she understands that you are her accomplice, her partner, her best friend...it will make it hard to get the job done. If manual dilaton is resisted or refused by the subject, then lots of relax,ing massage of shoulders, legs, thighs, arms, and plenty gentle stroking rotations on her tummy should at least get some muscular relaxation to set in. Or her intimate partner or a trusted friend can be enlisted to perform the manual dilation honors.
.....Yes there are people who are perverse enough to take some kind of adverse legal action against beneficial procedures that they don't understand. Some folks don't quite get it, and so would hold their ignorance against you. Those folks are better off left in the hands of the maternity ward,.... scalpels, forceps, sedation, and all. ....rather than you being sacrificed on their ignorant witch-hunt alter. Who would that help?
.....As to dilation, I've always been in favor of regular sexual activity right up until the last days, as a way of maintaining a healthy degree of dilation awareness in the mother. But perhaps that is the subject of a whole other thread....... -
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Re: manual dilation
Wed, May 13, 2009 - 7:59 PMjust so you know #1- you AREN'T a woman and you have absolutely no idea what it feelsl ike to go through this process. #2 NO ONE has the right to do this to a woman against her will. I am 25 years old and expecting my first child. After spending 24 hours on medication to bring on labor, my doctor said I could go home and wait it out if there had been no cervical change. We allowed the nurse, who had just came on shift, to check my cervix for change. It became incredibly painful and started immediate contractions and bleeding. I was screaming and telling her to stop and she wouldn't. She explained that she was trying to manually dilate my cervix to bring on labor AFTER she took her hand out. My baby was in no danger staying inside longer, and I was dealing with the contractions just fine. As a result of her actions we left the hospital and contacted the DON, who agrees this nurse was grossly out of line as this is NOT a common thing for them to do and must be ordered by a physician unless there is imminent danger to mother or child. I am terrified to go in labor now and will not be going back next week to retry the induction. Maybe to you this sort of treatment is "beneficial" but to a young first time mother it is extremely painful, shameful and violating. If a man forced his hand into a woman and wouldn't stop you would agree that that is assult or rape, but because someone has medical training it's acceptable? Go through it just one time and you'll change your mind... -
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Re: manual dilation
Wed, May 13, 2009 - 8:14 PMoh mindy. i'm so sorry to hear of your experience. i am the original poster who began this thread a long time ago. i unsubscribed from tribe for awhile, then resubscribed under my previous name.
what a terrible ordeal for you. i'm sorry that it has resulted in you being afraid of labor & birth. i'm a student childbirth educator & if you ever want to talk it out or try to work out some difficult feelings, i would love to listen to you.
you have my whole-hearted wishes for a strong, wonderful, positive birth on your terms, in your own time, at your own pace. no one should ever force you to have your baby. your body will let it out eventually - no one has been pregnant forever!
much love & peace to you & your child.
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Re: manual dilation
Tue, October 21, 2008 - 8:52 AMIx Chel, Hands off the mother is such a good approach for almost all labors. If a womans cervix is nt dilating then it is not ready to in most instances. Manual dilation should be such a last ditch approach and only if there is a reasoning such as scar tissue on the cervix which may be impeding full dilation. This is seen in woman who may have had cry treatment for abnormal paps among other things. Manual dilation in that case is not really used to dilated the whole cervix but the help break away the impediment that may be holding the cervix up. At no time should someone attempt fully dilate a woman.
I have to disagree that a woman's partner should do it unless that is the desires and wishes of the woman and partner. Many men would not feel comfortable doing such to their wife and would not necessarily know where the scar tissue is and how gently or not to be...
Sexual activity up to labor is a great way to stimulate birth as it not only deposits Prostalgandins at the cervix which can promote dilation but increase Oxytocin in her system. But I am not sure how that promotes dilation awareness -
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Unsu...
Re: manual dilation
Tue, October 21, 2008 - 5:55 PMthanks, tia. it's just i read a birth story recently & her midwife manually dilated her, twice, even tho it hurt, she didn't want it & the first time was upon midwife's first vaginal exam. she said it would "cut hours off her labor", but it seems to me all it did was make her tense & therefore, not helping at all.
for the record, briggi, i am not a midwife. i am studying to be a childbirth educator. just wanted to make that clear since it seemed you maybe thought i was talking from personal experience.
although, i will be attending my first birth in april as a homebirth doula for a friend! (i am also technically not a doula) -
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Re: manual dilation
Wed, October 22, 2008 - 6:06 AMwhat was the purpose of this manual dilation? at what stage of the labor it happened? how was the baby doing? in the case ur r bringing I agree that i t may have been invasive and inapropriate..
But it can be useful sometimes but always w/ the knowledge and aggreement of the woman. -
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Re: manual dilation
Wed, October 22, 2008 - 10:54 PM.....For me "Natural Childbirth" is the traditional natural way . It's the modern industrial age modes that are the "alternative". By "traditional", I mean birthing modes that have been handed down for thousands of years, and are still in use today in Africa, India, and other pre-industrial places. Birth can be easy, natural, minimally painful, and not take very long. I think that modern mainstream hospital-practice is often on the wrong track.
.....For ease of passage of the infant throught the birth canal, dilation is a must. The mother-to be should be nice and supple and stretchy and warm and flexible to allow and facilitate the process. What you don't want, par contre, is that her ring muscles be cold and rigid and unprepared. Just like when a lady enjoys sexual penetration, a little warming fore-preparation makes things go so much easier. As some ladies may know from experience, having sex when you are cold and tight and not ready is just no fun.
..... Sexual activity is an analog to birth activity. So by the same token, women who are totally physically unprepared, suffering low body awareness, and going into the birth process cold, are bound to have alot of tedious painful labor, grunting and groaning and pressing and pushing and tearing and bleeding in an effort to overcome cold weak locked birth muscles through force. ....all of which can be avoided.
.....I do not hold with anaesthetising and cutting of tissue as an alternative ...in order to overcome a rigidly locked ring-muscle. BARBARIC!... but maybe time-saving.... and for sure the hospital makes money off added-on surgical procedures. But we're supposed to see the advantage to NATURAL childbirth.
..... Dilation can be accompolished a number of ways.
+++ Thai Yoga Massage , (or any good massage mode) for example. This particular practice relaxes, energizes, balances, un-blocks, and gives the receiver a nice warm buzz of prana energy. I use special techniques for pregnant women which are not quite as dynamic as the normal TYM, in fact very gentle, with limited stretch, and plenty of light meridian work,...but still extremely effecacious. In this mode I do not contact the genital areas, yet am able to effect the needed relaxation.
+++ Yoga is another excellent practice that the pregnant mother-to-be can engage in to maintain control and flexibility. I know of several mothers who have continued their yoga practice right right up to, and then through the birthing! They see childbirth as just another component of yoga... a kind of Kriya, if you like.
+++ "Intimate" massage, that is to say caressing and stroking of the genetalia, is also not out of the question as a means of warming and relaxing and preparing the area through manual dilation. If this shocks or offends you, then read no further and go back to square one. Because of cultural orientation, there may be some resistance to this due socially -instilled perceived notions of privacy and propriety. But I think all that should go out the window when perorming a serious medical procedure. The trick is to get the mother-to-be to become your willing and enthusiastic accomplice.
+++ Sexual activity during pregnancy, perhaps not quite as vigorously as before, can help the mother maintain awareness of her vulva and ring-muscle. She can be instructed to observe and feel how her vulva relaxes into dilation. The sex is to keep things from going to sleep down there. ... so that you don't very suddenly call upon these areas to go into action with inadequate preparation. Sexual penetration during pregnancy is a viable activity for those who are particularly physically strong and healthy, having a good lusty outlook. ...Only for the willing...not for the weak and reticent.... not for those suffering imbalance or who are lotherwise liable to not react well. Dilaton, in this sense is not always, practically speaking, an option... regardless of its desireability.
.....Please understand me correctly. These methods are for those who want them... NOT for those who don't. Those who don't want this are advised to look to other methods. You explain to your subject beforehand just what your practice involves. There are many who instinctively will feel that your way is good and true and just so right. And then there are those who will reject this mode, meeting it with anxiety and fear... their cultural values would need to be re-programmed in order to get them to overcome the denial. ... and it is not my wish nor will to spend heaps of time fruitlessly trying to persuade and convince. That would not only be unrewarding, but even troublesome. Again, this method is for those who want it... not for those who don't..
..... all of these techniques together, in my book, complement each other for the best overall result.
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Re: manual dilation
Thu, October 23, 2008 - 11:40 AMBriggi, I'm noticing that *all* of these techniques are based on the assumption that a woman needs HELP dilating during labor which simply isn't true.
The point in trusting natural and traditional childbirth is that a woman's body knows what to do all on its own, thank you. There are rare times when intervention (dilitation, etc) is needed but i think the whole purpose of this Tribe is to redirect our thinking and outlook away from intervention-oriented births and back toward the natural process. -
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Re: manual dilation
Fri, October 24, 2008 - 3:28 AMYes a woman's body knows what to do. We all know what to do. Inside we have the full program, with instructions within our DNA cells, on "what to do".... that is, if you leave well enough alone, and you leave the body to respond and react naturally in a natural way, to natural situations. .... and we are enjoying a state of grace within Nature. But no, somebody had to come along and spoil a good thing by imposing un-natural behaviors, synthetic life-styles, counter-intuitive mindsets, unwholesome activity... over the natural way.... Call it the modern industrial age man-made living condition.
Yes in a natural, or primitive setting, when it's time, a woman in Africa can stop working in the fields, go off to the side, squat down, dilate at will, have her infant, and then carrying the infant, get back to work the same day. The woman in India, can sit up on her doorway step, and in 20 minutes make delivery, the newborn sliding easily out into the hands of her neighbor. No biggie.
But here, in western "civilization" we moan and push and groan in pain on our backs for hours to get the same job done as the lady in "primitive" society.... and call it "normal". O yes, we're so in control doing our modern medical method....NOT. Maybe we ought to re-evaluate our dearly held beliefs about what is natural and what is not, and getting in tune with our own bodies. Let's get on the same page as those folks who do it easily and painlessly.
Politically, you may be right that the modern gal knows just what to do... I won't challenge that. But biologically we all have alot to learn about doing it the way Nature designed us to. If people really have the dilation thing under control, thank you, then why do too many women have such a hard time of it? It's up to you, as practicioner, to find out, and to make necessary changes for the better. -
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Unsu...
Re: manual dilation
Fri, October 24, 2008 - 11:52 AMbriggi, i'm curious: what experience do you have of labor & birth? & in what context? are you a midwife? how long have you been immersed in the world of birthing? -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: manual dilation
Fri, October 24, 2008 - 5:05 PM.....I've posed some questions in a form where you get to answer "true"... or "false"... and why. Be prepared to support your views with well-reasoned statements. To offer the information I have?... You don't need any particular qualifications at all. But let's try logic and reason and sense to beginwith.
.....I'm expecting some intelligent exchange of views here. If I appear to question your beliefs, then think it over first, then give it your best shot. I'm open. If you have something, then bring it up... if not, then hold it down.
.....I am a practicioner of Yoga, and of Thai Yoga Massage....15 years. As a sideline, I am a giver of TYM to pre-natal women. I assist at births. I've probably attended some schools that you haven't. Other questions? -
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Unsu...
Re: manual dilation
Fri, October 24, 2008 - 9:45 PMyou speak of "dilating at will" & i respectfully disagree, barring a midwife who can verify your claims. it's my understanding that the women in traditional societies dilate at the same rate as every other woman, they simply do not experience the same type of pain that women brought up in our fear-centric society are conditioned to expect. they have an intuitive knowing that birth is normal & not to be feared. there is a lot of work that goes into dilating the cervix & pushing out the baby. in traditional cultures, the uterus does all the work. it's our minds that get in our way here & make what should be a relatively easy experience, long & arduous.
no need to get your yoga pants in a bunch, briggi, i was simply asking about your birthing experience. no need to be defensive. i simply want to know in what context you have knowledge about birth to offer here. are you a midwife, a doula or a childbirth educator? or are you a pregnant woman?
oh, you've attended schools i haven't?! that's great & not surprising, considering you've got about 40 years on me. i feel like your trying to one-up me spiritually & intellectually & make me look like i'm ignorant because you're a man. here's the school i've been to: the institute of being pregnant & birthing a child. ever been to that school?
you're expecting an intelligent exchange of views? i'm expecting relevant answers to my queries. how about you *read* the post before responding because, so far, you've given totally inapplicable answers to 2 questions i've brought here for the midwives. i was originally asking if manual dilation on a laboring woman against her wishes constituted assault, which i believe, it does. i believe any procedure performed upon someone against their wishes constitutes assault. in this case, it prolongs labor instead of relaxing the mother & genuinely reducing labor time. -
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Re: manual dilation
Fri, October 24, 2008 - 10:28 PMYour question: I see your point. It would be hard to get that across though in a court of law. Because in order to prove "assault", you'd have to clearly demonstrate an intent to do harm on the part of the midwife. But anyway she'd clearly want to get as much consent and cooperation and understanding from her subject as possible before starting.
To sum up: I believe there are yoginis out there who could verify the (potential) degree of control one could achieve over one's (female) body. While not everyone has the skills of a yogini, yoga is still an effective tool for attaining a greater degree of *conscious* muscular decontraction.
End of story...hope you enjoyed it.
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Re: manual dilation
Sat, October 25, 2008 - 5:47 PM"Yes in a natural, or primitive setting, when it's time, a woman in Africa can stop working in the fields, go off to the side, squat down, dilate at will, have her infant, and then carrying the infant, get back to work the same day. The woman in India, can sit up on her doorway step, and in 20 minutes make delivery, the newborn sliding easily out into the hands of her neighbor. No biggie.
But here, in western "civilization" we moan and push and groan in pain on our backs for hours to get the same job done"
Y'know, i had a midwife friend open a midwifery school in India for several years, and the Caribbean, and the Middle East and funny thing- Labor isn't this miraculously pain-free experience you glibly describe. Women in India and elsewhere are flat-out exhausted afterwards, ready for a good lying-in rest. Frankly your description of African and Indian women smacks of indirect racist- "primitive" women just keep on going like good draft animals, really! Not to say that some women don't experience labor as an ecstatic, transcendent pain-free experience. A *few* do. The other 99.9% of women on the face of this planet, be it in the smallest village in rural India or a London metro hospital experience it as an ecstatic, transcendent, really-fucking-painful experience and to try and imply that any woman who actually feels pain (gasp) is somehow screwed up and out-of-touch with her body, well..... it goes straight past condescending and right into laughably ignorant, and judgmental.
right. i'm done with this. -
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Re: manual dilation
Sat, October 25, 2008 - 7:02 PMlet's all be gentle with each other here.
we talked in anther thread about how the :get up and work in the fields" legend is less rpevalent than the extended cheltering of mothers with new infants in hardworking foraging or horticultural societies.
Briggi, I feel you are a good person who is for the most part very respectful fo women;s bodies and experiences, and that maybe there are some language and cultural factors that are at play here. (I'm part Hungarian myself Briggi, hungarian jewish actually which is ethnically a little differnt but shares a lot fo cultural pscology with mayar culture.)
I will say that Ilve found that those who don't have vaginas in this lifetime..yes, men, including my very my dear friends with whom I share much on many levels...really have to be careful imagining they know what is involved in ushing a baby out of one. i say this with all humility...even men who have been present for the births of thier children and are clsoe to their partners can only imagine what it is like 'from the inside" so to speak, jsut as I really don;t know what it feels like to have n erection and ejaculate through a stimulated penis. i can imagine; i can talk with men about their experience with their genital organs,. but I really don;t know what it;s like to have a penis or a prostate in this lifetime, and I don;t give a lot of advice about what to do with those organs. I can learn physiological and anatomical facts about the pnis that maybe most men don't ven know, but I really don;t know what it;s like to pull "mine" out several times a day to pee, or to enter a lover's bidy with it, or to push a foreskin back. maybe in my dreams or in some past life memories,but I try to appproach what is not within my own waking life experience with humility.
i don't always succeed at that; i can come off as an arrogant know it all sometiems. but I do know what i HSOULD be working on.
you know it;s funny; one book by a popular midwife who has herself borne five children had a page of advice that I thought was dangerous for exactly this reason, or almost exactly. (I know this woman socially and we have several good friends in common, unny how things work out.) the "exercises for men" in preparation for their bay;s birth was to "help" by stretching the corners of the vagina/vulva. the midwife said to "make it part of pleasurable sex play" which sounds great, but she also said that the man should remind his partner that it "isn; doing any good if it doesn't hurt." uhuh. she should realize that if it;s consensual (which in fairness to Briggi is what he too suggested), hey, there;s a fair walking of the pleasure/pain continuum in good loving sometimes and it might be fine. but there are also some men 9and women, for that matter) out there with a slightly sadistic streak that maynot even be entirely conscious, and frankly as i say I don;t want anyone who doesn;t have a vagina especialy and thus can;t know how much "good" something that is painful is doing to tell me, or anyone, that it;s "good for her." i;ve known some guys who were plosophical or spa pregnantiritual or bodywork fanatics, or combinations of these, and they can be really, really difficult to have around a pregnant woman, or a new mom. I;ve been hurt, emotinally more than physically, by men like this frankly; i know whereof i speak.
now as t midwives, some people, especially those who ahve come to the unasisted birth movement after a bad experience with a mideife, will say that they felt "raped" or otherwise violated or hurt by their midwives, and it;s worth hearing their stories if you are thinking of going into the midweifery field or anything related to it. some women are most comfortable with a ideifery style that inviolves a fair amount of intense touch; some are not. (those i;ve heard most critical of Spiritual midwifery have called Ina May Gaskin "I'm a Graspin'' " and i can see thier point, though SPiritual mideifery has been such a strong influence onme over the past 30 eyars that i can never totally reject anything inelarned from ina May and the Farm miives even when I sympathize with those who have problems with their approach.
at my home birth, I will say that looking back on it, there were times I felt,m and still feel, the midwife;s hands were inside me too much. i also can;t relly blame her as iw as feeling a bit lost when second stage was going slowly and i think i was asking for some kind of lowtech intervention. the more one can get clear on what kidns of touch are and aren;t acceptable ahead of time, the better, but sometiems, especially for a first birthing, i;s sort of 'see waht hppens as you go."
i sure know a lot more about having a baby ater having a baby than I did before, even with 20 eyars of study and hanging out with many women who discussed thier eperiences giving birth with me.
anyway...I don't think anyone here meant any ahrm to anyone, it;s jsut about differnt experiences.
hope this is helpful.
I need to fix dinner so will close here.
I also respect the diversity of hman experience, say with childborth. -
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Re: manual dilation
Sun, October 26, 2008 - 2:37 PMechoing again and demistifying the myth of "primitve is good.." a very good friend of mine has leaved for years in India i is a birth activist in France now, has described at lenght the pratice of midwives injecting IM oxytocics to speed a labor "too slow" or the practice of delaying the NB at the breast because colostrum can hurt...
The best exemples of intervetionism in 3rl world countrie by some TBA's but not all!! is in the horror movie "Le premier cri "produced by Dysney mind you, where u see horrific practices justified by : "thats the tradition."... pppf my foot...
and some of you may know me as afroBrasilin pratitioner of Ifa... we need to think!!!
oh BTW i am jewish hungarian..
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